Gender-based Software Philosophies

[23meg]

while "games for women" can be a good niche marketing strategy in a couple years, i think a gender distinction for games and for all software essentially shouldn't exist. i can understand the necessity for them growing at the moment; i understand why you're asking for them and looking to develop them: it's kind of seeking for a balance, it arises from the simple fact that the majority of games do come with cultural codes set for the dominant male character in them. but the "games for women" concept as i understand it would simply be just taking out the male codes and putting the female ones in their place, such as what kind of graphics the dominant female character will like, what kind of challanges she'd like to be put in, what kind of rewards she'd enjoy, what interests, desires, fears, etc. of this character can be stirred via gaming,, so on.

just thinking out loud again..

[kassetra]

it arises from the simple fact that the majority of games do come with cultural codes set for the dominant male character in them. but the "games for women" concept as i understand it will simply be the same thing, just taking out the male codes and putting the female ones in their place.

Actually, no. That would be what some people in the gaming world assume when they try to "think of games for Women" ... but that's not what this thread or this topic is even about.

This topic is about essentially - a separate genre of games, developed to meet the needs Women; to find the games that Women would like to play. This does not involve taking a game / game genre that exists and swapping out male "codes" for female ones. This involves researching what Women think a "game" should be, and based upon those ideas, creating a new game type.

[kassetra]

such as what kind of graphics the dominant female character will like, what kind of challanges she'd like to be put in, what kind of rewards she'd enjoy, what interests, desires, fears, etc. of this character can be stirred via gaming,, so on.

Actually to take this even further - those ideas are based upon the fact that a "game" for women consists of challenges/rewards based upon interests/desires/fears - but that's not what I'm getting at either.

I'm getting at essentially finding a "Woman's" idea of a "game." ... That may or may not involve challenges / rewards / interests / desires / fears in the traditional male-gaming-perspective sense.

It might be something completely outside of that mindset.

[23meg]

I'm getting at essentially finding a "Woman's" idea of a "game." ... That may or may not involve challenges / rewards / interests / desires / fears in the traditional male-gaming-perspective sense.

It might be something completely outside of that mindset.

that's exactly what i'm talking about - if this kind of thing should exist at all it should exist outside that mindset. "a woman's idea of a game" conveys the intent here much better; maybe not a "computer game" in specific but the idea of "play" or "gaming" in general, right? because understandings of these concepts do differ according to gender.

my point is that software in general shouldn't be engineered solely based on gender/race/ethnicity/whatever. and i've always been disappointed with "niche-filler" software; actually with any cultural product that claims to have found a so far unfulfilled "gap" and aims to fill it.

[kassetra]

my point is that software in general shouldn't be engineered solely based on gender/race/ethnicity/whatever. and i've always been disappointed with "niche-filler" software; actually with any cultural product that claims to have found a so far unfulfilled "gap" and aims to fill it.

Well, the case may be made for games that do not have a "niche" ... but in reality, to successfully market anything in today's world, a product has to fit into a narrow slot in order to be noticed.

And, in this case, in particular, I think at least 50% of the population as a whole has been completely overlooked in terms of computer entertainment. Simply because I want to make a game that takes Women's ideas into account as the *main* source of inspiration - which thus makes it a Women's game - doesn't mean that it is necessarily gender specific or a "niche-filler."

I doubt Half-Life2 would ever say, "New and Improved Men's Niche-Filler Game!" on the cover, yet, the number of women attracted to this game is small indeed. Furthermore, Half-Life2 wasn't engineered on the basis of ethnicity/race/etc. simply because *no other perspective was even considered/noticed outside of the 13-39 Male, predominantly white race demographic.*

So while I see your point, I don't think it stands up very well given the current gaming climate. Women's games are not niche-fillers or even software engineered for a gender - they are simply a new idea of game, that uses a completely different demographic as it's inspiration.

[23meg]

Half-Life2 wasn't engineered on the basis of ethnicity/race/etc. simply because *no other perspective was even considered/noticed outside of the 13-39 Male, predominantly white race demographic.*

the fact that no other perspective has ever been considered is kind of fascist in itself, and shows that the mainstream gaming industry is indeed basing its products on a particular gender. and when you take into account phenomena like adult gaming (which is very popular in japan), "cop chase" arcade games of the 90s where the "guilty" or "bad" guy is often black, and the multi-culturalist, eclecticist nature of some very popular games such as The Sims series it's obvious that sexuality, race, and local cultures can all be exploited as long as doing so sells, and it does sell. and the case isn't any different with, say, the tv or the movie industries.

Women's games are not niche-fillers or even software engineered for a gender - they are simply a new idea of game, that uses a completely different demographic as it's inspiration.

i'm not classifying women's games as discussed here as niche-fillers; i think that came across the wrong way. here you're actually inventing a necessity out of the blue (as opposed to finding an existing niche) and taking the appropriate actions to create something from the ground up, with regard to what everyone else is saying. what i'm calling niche-fillers is the opposite approach, that of the mainstream industries, the top-down, demographic approach that detects a niche, analyzes it, and carefully prepares the product that will sell the most to that niche. sounds like open source vs. proprietary, doesn't it

[23meg]

some relevant links:

http://www.gamegirladvance.com/
http://www.game-research.com/
http://www.academic-gamers.org
http://www.gamestudies.org/
http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/

[kassetra]

i'm not classifying women's games as discussed here as niche-fillers; i think that came across the wrong way. here you're actually inventing a necessity out of the blue (as opposed to finding an existing niche) and taking the appropriate actions to create something from the ground up, with regard to what everyone else is saying. what i'm calling niche-fillers is the opposite approach, that of the mainstream industries, the top-down, demographic approach that detects a niche, analyzes it, and carefully prepares the product that will sell the most to that niche. sounds like open source vs. proprietary, doesn't it

LOL I kind of like that analogy...

One of the worst-kept secret sayings around Microsoft when it comes to packaging/promoting software, with regard to much of their "home-based" / "education-based" software is this:
"Make it sound appealing to the soccer moms or else they won't allow their husbands to buy it!"
Which classifies just about exactly what you're talking about in demeaning language.

[Zenith_]

As much as developers (of games especially) should have at least some portion of blame placed on them, I also think that women as a whole aren't all that vocal about what they want. Obviously this is for varying reasons, and I'm certainly not proportioning blame here, but it's not often you hear a woman talk about what they'd like from a game. It has changed a little I think in the past couple of years, but it's still quite a small voice.

Female gamers are definately still a minority. I'm not sure if that's because most women aren't interested in games, or because the right game for them hasn't come along yet. A personal observation does point to the former, I've tried many a time to get family members/friends interested in gaming but just get a glazed over look in return. Most of them don't ever go near a computer much less play games. This is my own personal experience though and obviously only represents a very small section of women.

On the flip side of that, from playing MMORPG's (especially World of Warcraft I've noticed), there's definately been a steady increase in the female gaming population over the last year or so. So we are getting there!

[kassetra]

I also think that women as a whole aren't all that vocal about what they want.

Female gamers are definately still a minority. I'm not sure if that's because most women aren't interested in games, or because the right game for them hasn't come along yet.

When I started researching user interfaces as a psychological experiment, there were a few surprising datasets I came across: (these are the general trends of the Women that participated in these studies)

1. The Women in these studies preferred not to use a computer to do tasks for fear of doing something wrong and "breaking it."
2. The Women in these studies didn't want to appear to be "stupid" in comparison to male computer users. (They weren't being compared to the male users, btw, nor were the male users in this study more computer literate than their female counterparts.)
3. Once the Women in the studies were shown how to do a task, they rapidly understood the basic principles behind how the task worked - typically through a fast-pased series of trial and error.
4. The Women in these studies were very interested in computers and other aspects of computing, but were hesitant to voice their opinion due to a lack of technical confidence.
5. Of all of the entertainment interfaces presented - the Women in this study preferred the interface behind "Solitaire" overwhelmingly (98%) - when asked why, the general consensus was that it was intuitive - they could "pick up the cards."
-

Given this dataset (not that I'm saying it represents all Women, mind you) - it's no wonder women aren't interested in the traditional computer gaming ideas!

As for your question as to whether they aren't interested or if the right game hasn't come around yet - I'd say you're right, in both counts - which is what I want to change.